His Way Out Ministries Podcasts are dedicated to equipping, educating, and encouraging the Body of Christ to reach out and minister to individuals, families, and churches impacted by the brokenness of same-sex attraction.

For many years, the crisis of truth we have faced and the on-going crisis is ultimately not about homosexuality. “The crisis” is the Lordship of Christ and the Authority of Scripture.

“I will praise your name for your loving kindness and your truth, for you have magnified your word above your name.” Psalm 138

Listen online or download the podcast.

Homosexuality: A Crisis of Truth with Pastor Phillip Lee – Download MP3 –

America continues what I believe is a radical social experiment, the redefining of marriage. Ultimately, it’s not about whether or not gays and lesbians are nice people or good citizens. Frankly, some are and some aren’t, just like heterosexuals. It’s not about whether gays and lesbians can be good, nurturing, loving parents. It’s not even about whether or not gays and lesbians should be treated with respect and dignity. Every person deserves to be treated with respect and dignity.

Since we have redefined marriage to include same-sex marriage, is there any logical reason for us not to redefine marriage in other ways? There are those that demand equality that promote polygamy or group marriage. If marriage can be redefined to include two men or two women, why not allow marriage between a man and four women, or a group of six or seven adults and their various children?

Today, a popular error that has been made and continues to be made by many, is the attempt to blur the lines with regard to Christian ethics making “love” an omnipotent spiritual quality which has the power to validate anything that is done in its name. Under this particular line of thinking, one could justify any type of relationship, including those considered unacceptable and incompatible with Christian teaching and conduct.

Is the perceived or even real presence of love the criterion for all relationships? Indeed, God is love – absolutely. But true love has boundaries that protect, guide and show concern for its recipients. Ultimately, showing support for, and more importantly, standing upon The Authority of Scripture “for marriage between one man and one woman” is not intolerant. If so, then nature itself would be intolerant. Marriage was established by God Himself and as a result, cannot be redefined by each new generation.

Within the same-sex marriage experiment, lesbian mothers are saying that a father is irrelevant to parenting; homosexual fathers say that a mother is irrelevant to parenting. But God says both a mother and a father are relevant to parenting. Is anyone truly serious in suggesting that two men can take the place of a mother’s love, or two women can equal a dad?

Today, especially in America, the words “intolerant” and “discrimination” are powerful words and often used to squash any opinion about moral behavior. In fact, not only is the demand today to keep our opinions to ourselves as to what people do, the equal demand is to affirm a long list of various lifestyles no matter how questionable or experimental.

Compassion, communication, and care must be exercised with regard to the same-sex marriage experiment. The enormous problem in American society is the frequent usage of our experience as a basis to interpret reality. Far too many think, I’m having this experience and enjoying it, so God Himself in particular and society as a whole had better jump on-board, get used to it and fit in around with what I’m doing. Do we as a society really have the right to redefine marriage so it is elastic enough to include any grouping of adults?

In the face of what is arguably one of the most damaging social experiments to ever be attempted in this country, the notion of a family with a father, mother, and children, all living under the same roof, appears to be becoming a relic of a bygone era, at least in some quarters.

Gay marriage advocates will tell you that what children really need is two loving adults in their lives and that the sex of those adults doesn’t matter – the assumption being that mothers and fathers are interchangeable and optional. Our ultimate preference should always be a family comprised of one father and one mother. We cannot, we must not wrest children from the God-given format of family relationship without considering the possibilities of serious consequences.

Admittedly, a society, a compassionate society should always come to the aid of motherless and fatherless families. That said, a compassionate society should never, ever, intentionally create motherless and fatherless families. And that’s exactly what the experiment of same-sex marriage does.

Pastor Phillip Lee
Executive Director
His Way Out Ministries

Nancy Schultz, a friend of many years, sent me this picture taken in 1985. While I do not know the exact date the picture was taken, I do know it wasn’t too long after surrendering my life to Christ Jesus.

We, (left) Nancy Schultz, my mother, Roma, me and Nancy’s dad, Bob.

We are standing in the church parking lot sharing a cup of fellowship. Yep, it was most definitely quite some time ago because I had dark hair!

Ah, yes, Church.

For years I have had a practice when speaking in a church or conference to eventually make my way to the back of sanctuary or auditorium, look toward the front and think to myself – “This is good. This is decent. This makes sense.”

The years I lived as a gay-identified man within the gay communities of Los Angeles, San Francisco, and New York City produced anything but a good, decent, and sense-filled life. The futility of homosexual practice enabled and produced a false self, a half-person, and left me with a perpetual question mark.

Ultimately, it was the Church that helped me to face reality honestly, compassionately and courageously. With time, a sense of value, a sense of being loved and accepted, and a sense of living a meaningful life produced the best value of all – human well-being.

Honesty requires I acknowledge there were times of moving into my new life, my new identity and a new community that was by no means easy. Thankfully and gratefully, within the process, I received an abundance of wise counsel, encouragement and support.

Today, if I allow myself to look back, I marvel at how easily I became consumed by and locked into a false identity not knowing and realizing I was hopelessly and endlessly searching for “me” in all the wrong places.

The Church that surrounded me treated me with dignity and respect while at the same time being abundantly clear in stating and showing me from Scripture that homosexual behavior is just one of the forms human fallenness can take with divine forgiveness and restoration available to all that surrender to the Lordship of Christ.

To this day, I remain grateful to the Church for helping me to distinguish between healthy and unhealthy desires. It is a fact that truth can hurt, if not cut deeply, before it heals. However, truth offered and presented compassionately is more than liberating. When truth becomes known, and acted upon, truth frees.

Yes, indeed, Church is good, decent, and makes sense. Where I came from made no sense whatsoever. Truth and reality dictate that until each person comes to grips with this central ethical question – whether and why anything is either right or wrong – they will wander needlessly, hopelessly, and God forbid, disastrously adrift.

To speak the truth in love is not to condemn the one to whom it is spoken. Truth is good, truth is decent, truth makes sense and will defend itself.

“Let love be without dissimulation…” (Romans 12:9).

I remain grateful the Church spoke truth to me.

Pastor Phillip Lee

“Restoration comes when you realize the light at the end of the tunnel is NOT a train!” (Lessons learned from the pit. Ugh!)

Today, often caught in the middle of the emotional conflict regarding “change” is the person who struggles with unwanted same-sex attraction. To him, (and I use the pronoun generically for both men and women) the issue of change is more than just an issue of emotional debate. It strikes at the very core of his being, either bringing hope or despair.

The Oxford American Dictionary defines change as to make or become different; to pass from one form or phase into another. Certainly, for any individual the greatest change is to become a Christian and know that your ultimate eternal destination has been changed from hell to heaven; to become born-again.

Having been around the phenomenon of change for quite some time, I am convinced that much of the conflict regarding same-sex attraction and change comes from a misunderstanding of the meaning of change. Redemptive changes occur in all healing, restoration process, our past involvement in sinful behavior, and what it was that pushed us toward the particular sin in the first place. With same-sex attraction, it is no different. The contributing factors to a person having an issue with same-sex attraction are numerous and complex. However, that does not minimize God’s power and sovereignty, nor does it change the undeniable biblical evidence that God can change the life of a person involved in homosexuality. Homosexuals have been experiencing change since the Bible was written. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11)

It occurred to me early on in my new life in Christ Jesus that the Gospel never once stated “come as you are and stay as you are” but rather “come as you are to be restored and transformed.”

Not unlike a multitude of others, I thought (at least to a degree), that a lot of my “stuff” would instantaneously just “poof” and disappear. It didn’t occur to me that I did not arrive at my broken place in life overnight, therefore not everything was going to be resolved overnight. I had programmed deep into my thinking a whole truckload of experiences, activities, and beliefs that were anything but what God had intended. And, nobody pushed the “clear button” when I became a believer. All of that stuff (lies) was recorded in my mind and enabled the strongholds which directly affected how I say myself and others.

And, so, began a process of spiritual growth which continues to this day. I began facing and working through character faults, past hurts, immaturities, and a list of insecurities. You know, stuff! Often taking life disappointments and broken dreams to Jesus. Only He truly knows the answers to your problems.

One of the biggest and highest hurdles I first had to face down was the admittance I needed to make changes. Frankly, having to admit I needed to change was pretty tough since I could recall having same-gender attraction for as long as I could remember, and those feelings and emotions ‘felt’ natural. Ultimately, the admittance change is needed and necessary translated to “there’s something wrong with the way I am and the way I live.” You know, that’s a huge blow to one’s ego especially when you come to the realization that the changes needed cannot be accomplished alone.

I would definitely equate leaving homosexuality as comparable to submitting to major spiritual surgery. Bam! Instantaneously, your whole identity becomes absolute turmoil. That should not be so surprising since anytime we make a change in our behavior, it is usually because the pain involved in that behavior far outweighs the pleasure. Maybe you noticed like I did many, many years ago – while we know intellectually we must make a change, our feelings do not necessarily follow – men and women that say goodbye to homosexuality or lesbianism, experience grief, disorientation, and confusion. This is because someone we have known, been well acquainted with for a long, long time, is now dying. It is perfectly understandable the loss impacts our life and we grieve.

How well I remember launching out into the very, very uncomfortable dimension of the restoration process by opening up and placing under the Holy Ghost microscope, old, unresolved wounds. Ugh! I hated “going there” but I also understood that to implement necessary changes in my life necessitated retracing certain steps that enabled me to arrive at such a desperate place in life. Identifying painful situations that enabled the brokenness of same-sex attraction and working through them is just part of the whole process.

I am often asked, “Why do some make it out of homosexuality while others don’t?” I am convinced the common denominator among the men and women that have experienced a significant change in their lives involved the consideration of total surrender and control in their lives. In other words, nothing short of total commitment to the will of God (despite feelings, emotions, hormones, temptations, etc.) holds the same-sex attracted individual to the discipline needed for change. Ultimately, it is the individual’s decision and follow-through of putting God on the throne of his or her life instead of self.

Freedom, change, healing, restoration only occurs when we look upward to Jesus and are purposed to enter more deeply into fellowship with Him. As our Creator, God is the only one who knows exactly how to restore us and bring about change.

“I tell you the truth, unless a kernel of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a single seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds. The man who loves his life will lose it, while the man who hates his life in this world will keep it for eternal life.” (John 12:24-25 NIV)

Here’s a thought. When an individual who was once controlled by his or her sin is now free from that sin and engaged in a new kind of life pattern, hasn’t change occurred?

One day (I remember this so well), I had one of those “Ah-Ha!” moments. It finally hit me after a very, very long period of time that I was most definitely a “guy” that just happened to have different interests, gifts, and talents that did not necessarily match the abilities, gifts, and talents of others. No gender confusion, just gifts God had granted me and placed within me to ultimately honor and glorify Him. I have heard it said, “Fear is the darkroom where negatives are developed.” Boy had I bought into a truckload of negatives about myself.

Thank you, Jesus, for leaving the light on for me to find my way out of the negatives and darkness.

Oswald Chambers states in My Utmost for His Highest, “A man is a slave for obeying unless behind his obedience there is recognition of a Holy God.” I find it remarkable that God never insists on our obedience, but when we truly know Him, we want to instantly obey Him, change, and live according to His perfect will from sunup to sundown.

To this day, I thank God I did not become a Christian to leave homosexuality. I became a Christian because Jesus just made sense. Heaven knows, where I came from and what I was doing made absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Today, I continue to find that God will take me as far as I am willing to go. The path of healing from same-sex attraction comes about only through a genuine and intimate relationship with Jesus Christ. The addiction and bondage to homosexuality can be broken. I say “can be” because Jesus has given us free will. The essential first step is wanting Christ and all that He offers.

The only remedy for any lie you may have embraced or bought into about yourself or homosexuality is to confront it with truth, His truth.

Pastor Phillip Lee
Executive Director
His Way Out Ministries

“If I profess with the loudest voice and clearest exposition every portion of the truth of God except precisely that little point which the world and the devil are at the moment attacking, then I am not confessing Christ, however boldly I may be professing Christ. Where the battle rages, there the loyalty of the soldier is tested.” Martin Luther

Pastor Phillip Lee and His Way Out Ministries present Season Four; Episodes 12 through 21 Audio Podcasts originally broadcast live on KERI 1410AM Radio in Bakersfield, CA

All 4 Seasons and 91 Episodes of 30-minute broadcasts are dedicated to equipping, educating, and encouraging the Body of Christ to reach out and minister to individuals, families, and churches impacted by the brokenness of same-sex attraction.

Listen online or download all 10 Episodes.

Scripture and Sexual Expression with Will Wynn pt1, Audio Podcast S04E12
Scripture and Sexual Expression with Will Wynn pt2, Audio Podcast S04E13
Pastor Phillip Lee is joined by ordained minister, fried, and partner of His Way Out Ministries, Will Winn to discuss, Scripture and Sexual Expression. What do we know about homosexuality, scripturally-speaking? Pastor Phillip and Will take a journey through a variety of Scriptures that speak clearly with regard to homosexuality. Genesis Chapters 1 and 2, Matthew 19:4-6, and Romans 5:12-19, just to name a few, clearly define that God’s divine intent for human sexuality has very clear holy boundary lines regarding sexual expression.

A Crisis of Authority with Pete Baker pt1, Audio Podcast S04E14
A Crisis of Authority with Pete Baker pt2, Audio Podcast S04E15
Pastor Pete Baker, friend, ministry partner, and Senior Pastor of Fairfax Assembly of God joins Pastor Phillip Lee to discuss,

• Why has the issue of homosexuality remained so divisive to the Church?
• How does God want us to see gay-identified individuals?
• Have too many churches conformed to the standards of the popular culture regarding homosexual practice versus the truth and authority of Scripture?
• Is the Bible inspired and without error in its original delivery to the prophets from God or just a collection of myths and man-made opinions?

Pastor Baker also shares the testimony of his two recent trips to South Korea with emphasis on the dedication, discipline, and power of prayer.

Feelings Don’t Define Your Identity with Angelo Frazier pt1, Audio Podcast S04E16
Feelings Don’t Define Your Identity with Angelo Frazier pt2, Audio Podcast S04E17
Pastor Phillip Lee welcomes Pastor of Outreach & Care at River Lakes Community Church, Angelo Frazier, for a frank discussion touching on feelings and sexual identity. How does God want us to see gay-identified men and women? Is it possible to validate homosexual practice from Scripture? Scripture states clearly that change is possible.

Feelings Are Not The Real You with Wayne Blakely pt1, Audio Podcast S04E18
Feelings Are Not The Real You with Wayne Blakely pt2, Audio Podcast S04E19
Pastor Phillip Lee welcomes Wayne Blakely, Founder and Director of Know His Love Ministries. God defines the difference between right and wrong. And, He has made sexual pleasure to be good…in the context of His moral boundaries set for it. Wayne shares about his 40 years living as a gay-identified man and both offer a response to “Same-sex attraction…Why me?”

Don’t Underestimate The Church with Will Wynn pt1, Audio Podcast S04E20
Don’t Underestimate The Church with Will Wynn pt2, Audio Podcast S04E21
Pastor Philip Lee is joined by friend, ministry partner, and ordained minister, Will Winn, for a frank, open, and honest discussion about the difficulty faced by the Christian Church regarding homosexual behavior. The Church remains God’s vehicle to reach wounded, broken, and hurting humanity, and should not be underestimated in it’s ability to provide answers to the difficult topic of homosexuality.

All past episodes of His Way Out Ministries Radio Broadcast are available by following THIS LINK or selecting the “Audio Podcast” category on the right.

Today, attempts by pro-gay theologians and pro-gay apologists to revise the historic teachings of the Church with regard to homosexual practice are relentless. Admittedly, their effort to persuade the clergy and theologians of the moral legitimacy of homosexual conduct has not been carried out in a vacuum. Battles continue, as those who favor homosexual practice promote the notion that there is no clear answer to the issue. There are even those that attempt to persuade under the banners of ‘love’ and ‘commitment’ that homosexual relationships be justified.

Today, there are powerful forces at work with the enemy having accomplished much by utilizing his divide and conquer tactics. Clearly, many are now worshipping another Jesus. A Jesus which has been created by man that requires absolutely no sacrifice, makes no demands of obedience, and is completely and totally silent when it comes to sexual sin.

Scripturally speaking, what do we know about homosexuality?

• We are created beings and created with a specific intent. (Genesis 1:26-2:23) God’s blueprint for human sexuality as found in Genesis 1 and 2, clearly establishes that from the beginning God had a divine intent for human sexuality with well-defined holy boundary lines to live within regarding sexual expression.
• God’s divine intent for human sexuality is fulfilled within the covenant of a monogamous and heterosexual union. (Matthew 19:4-6)
• We are a fallen race, and the Fall has marred every part of our experience, including our sexual experience. (Romans 5:12-19)
• Homosexuality is a manifestation of fallen nature and it violates created intent. (1 Corinthians 6:9-10)
• Homosexuals are redeemable and change is possible. (1 Corinthians 6:11)

Nowhere within the totality of Scripture will you find even one positive statement about homosexual practice. Every time homosexuality is mentioned it is always mentioned as a behavior in which no man or woman is to practice. Difficult as this standard is to obey, it is the calling of Christ for all His followers, including those with same-sex attractions and desires.

The problem with pro-gay theologians and pro-gay apologists is their theorizing and speculating on what Scripture does not say about homosexuality while a true faithful follower of Christ Jesus stands upon the clarity and authority of Scripture regarding homosexual practice. Revisionists can justify virtually any type of sexual relationship, including those traditionally and historically considered immoral.

Revisionists have been quite successful in confusing compassion with acceptance of homosexual practice. Those promoting ‘the liberating power of love,’ continue to blur the lines by citing ‘some of God’s Word’ as too repressive. However, Jesus Himself repeatedly affirmed the relevance and importance of moral law:

“Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets, I have come not to abolish but to fulfill. For truly I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not one letter, not one stroke of a letter, will pass from the law until all is accomplished.” (Matthew 5:17-18)

Ultimately, any effort to redefine homosexual practice (in any form and to any degree) as acceptable and consistent with biblical faith constitutes an attack upon the very foundations of the Christian faith and Church.

As revisionist attacks will no doubt continue, faithful followers of the teachings of Christ must continue to counter any and all attempts to make homosexuality morally acceptable. Not to do so would undermine the traditional and historic Christian understanding regarding sexual morality.

The Gospel message that Jesus preached was and is a message of repentance and surrender. Like Jesus, His followers are to suffer the rejection of the world. We are intended to be at odds with the thinking and attitudes of this world. To water down the Gospel to make it acceptable is to lose the truth and life of God’s message.

In a world that is rapidly accepting everything and tolerating anything, faithful followers of Christ Jesus must be extremely careful. Many false teachers exist today with their underlying message being homosexuality is acceptable for anyone who wants to engage in it – a direct contradiction of Scripture.

Today, virtually nothing in society promotes the truth about homosexuality. The lies that homosexuality is a fulfilling, normal and healthy alternative saturate the media. Many are tenacious and relentless in elevating same-sex desire to the level of a moral norm.

The Church is presently faced with a challenge of significance of which is nearly impossible to exaggerate. Is ‘tolerance’ to be extended without limitation to any and all kinds of sexual expression? Is any kind of sexual relationship scripturally permissible as long as it is ‘consensual’? Does it all come down to a matter of personal taste?

I still believe the Church remains God’s vehicle to reach wounded, broken, hurting humanity. Therefore, may we, His Church:

Affirm the biblical position that God loves all persons, with homosexuality being one sin among many others and that the Holy Spirit is available to transform all persons – including the same-sex attracted individual.

Minister to persons with unwanted same-sex attraction and their families as partners in Christ’s work of healing and transformation.

Call the Church to recognize and confess its need for repentance of its welcoming and affirming of homosexual practice in the Church.

“He has showed you, O man, what is good. And what does the Lord require of you? To act justly and to love mercy and to walk humbly with your God.” (Micah 6:8)

Pastor Phillip Lee
Executive Director
His Way Out Ministries